Allied Units that could be tweaked for more fun

[Otto von Saxony]

Dont feel like making a long winded intro, but a short justification why I think some/all of these changes should happen:

Fun. Allies dont have many units that are fun to use, this would make some units that are borderline or just bad a lot more fun in theory.

1. Mechanized Infantry:

So its pretty much accepted they are terrible and require highly skilled play to be cost effective. Im aware that some ideas bouncing around amount to deleting them and doing some doctrine shenanigans to make normal rifles take on some of their special abilities. Im not a huge fan of that based on what Ive seen so far so here are my two cents on if we want to keep the unit but make it not bad:

Parameters that can be tweaked to make better (ordered by what I think should be done first):
- Replace mine sweeper with a Thompson
- Increase HP (+5-10 hp/man)
- Reduce cost
- Switch to elite armour

Quick reasoning: they are both squishy and have pretty weak dps compared to axis assault infantry, an extra thompson and/or more hp would make them much more viable.

2. Sherman Jumbo
This just feels like it could use a little nudge. ATM it basic does everything a regular Sherman does but slower. It is a bit tougher skinned but not it still feels underwhelming.

Ideas for tweaks (ordered from my most preference to least):
- Switch armour type to Pershing armour (medium buff, except vs upgunned hotchkai and paks)
- Increase maneuverability slightly

Quick reasoning: Sherman Jumbo irl had roughly the same armour as a Pershing, and giving it a general armour buff will make it function better as a pseudo-heavy tank.

Note: if anyone want to know the exact effect of this I have a spreadsheet that specifically details the difference in armour values.

3. Recon Snipe:
Reduce cost by 10 muni. It essentially only cost effective vs snipers, and as a sniper counter a recon tommy + uc is the most expensive sniper counter.

4. Commandos
Reduce cost by 10-20 munis. Under perfect conditions (teleporting to close range) they essentially mutual annihilate vs any axis assault infantry (if they win theyd have 1-2 men left on low hp). In realistic conditions where they do not get a free teleport and have to close distance, or there are supporting axis units they will virtually allows lose. To reflect that 220 mp 110 muni*, or 190 mp 55 muni, or 220 mp 55 muni, etc. squads are a tough fight to a 300 mp 140 muni squad, they really should become cheaper. Their manpower cost is fine for a 6 man squad with a powerful special ability, but since their dps is so poor outside of close range their muni cost should be decreased.

*They do around 50% of the damage of assault grenadiers at close range after armour is accounted for.

5.  Devils Brigade
This unit is also universally considered bad. I do not even know why anyone uses it, or what it is good for other than as an expensive demo unit.

As a fighting unit they:
- Are squishy
- Cannot shoot on the move
- Have weak dps for how much they cost
- Lose to basically all axis infantry that have smgs/lmgs/assault rifles

If we want to have them persist as a combat unit (which I think they should since they have the potential to be a fun unit to use) there are a few possible tweaks that we could make:
- Make Johnson LMGs able to shoot while moving
- Increase HP per model by 5-10
- Change base rifles from garands to a custom rifle that is better (if we decide on this I can throw out some idea on which way to make it better)
- Change to elite armour from soldier armour
- Increase line-of-sight while cloaked
- Change hard cloak to a different ability (f.e. concealing smoke, fire up, heroic charge(though self only), Inspired Assault, Blitz)
- Heroic Criticals
- Regeneration

My thought on this unit that based on its history is that it should be a limited (1 resupply), expensive, but extremely potent assault infantry. I think Johnson LMGs shooting on the move, increased HP per model, and elite armour would make them actually have a use outside of blowing up a bunker or two.


Id like to hear all yalls thoughts. If you think changes would in practice be buffs/nerfs, or you have your own ideas for these units Id like to hear them.

[sdauz]

I get that most of the buffs you suggested are for allied assault infantry, which is part of a broader issue. All allied factions need quality assault infantry, similar to wher and pe.

[RazorSixActual]

YES PLEASE OTTO

[matrin]

Posted on Theta/Snarks behalf.

1. Mechanized Infantry
I would suggest giving a third Thompson to the carbine holding squad member and detaching the grenade upgrade from the squad as separate purchase. This way the unit can keep its minesweeping potential. Either a health increase per man or a switch to elite armor, but probably not both. By switching the squads firepower from a grenade to an extra SMG, this makes it easier to use the unit by reducing the amount of micro needed (keeping in mind all of these actions are taking place while the player is also microing a vehicle or two).

2. Jumbo
Some weird implications, especially with Stugs going from basically being a hard counter to Jumbos to being useless against them. I would be careful about giving out Pershing armor, especially since heavy tanks are already marginalized in terms of usage.

3/4. Seems fine by me.

5. This unit has an identity crisis and needs a clearly defined role first. I dont even know where you start with the unit because it tries to be so many different things without being particularly good at any of them. Furthermore, there isnt any clear doctrinal relationship. RCA is already a doctrine about artillery and support options, so having it as a scouting/screening unit might be a good direction. Something like a unit that has increased line of sight when stationary and perhaps PIAT ambush/cloak plus Johnson LMGs with suppressive fire. This lets the unit assist RCA mortars and provide extra suppression to fend off enemy blobs when a Vickers MG is not enough."
under this thread

[robieman]

My mechanized suggestion: 5 man team, add 1 Tommy man. Do they have Rifleman armor? Keep that. Give them 30% damage resistance and 50% suppression resistance near tanks. Tanks not all vehicles. 30 unit range for the buff.

Big price increase: 330 mp 120 munitions. Grenade is optional 40 munitions.

Now this unit is unique and strong. Giving it a direct armor change is just going to be the equivalent of the other factions elite infantry. With this suppression resistance but no fire up, they will be hard to get on the ground, but once you finally do you have them. You can also prioritize their tanks to deal with these bad boys.

[Snarks]

On the topic of Mechanized Infantry, 50% suppression resistance is not going to really do anything other than help them get out of suppression faster when not being shot at. We had to set the value to around 90% just for the squad to be able to resist a single burst of MG42 fire. Dropping from 25% received damage and 25% received accuracy to a simple 30% received damage reduction along with switching from soldier armor to infantry armor is a sizable nerf to their survivability.

Overall, your proposal would be a nerf to its unique capacity and makes them more of a generic squad. At 330 MP, 120 MU, you will get a squad that is almost as expensive as a SMG Ranger squad while having less firepower, lower health, and lower utility. If you want to set their price to 330 MP, then the squad needs to retain its soldier armor and go back to the original suppression immunity status when near tanks for it to even be anywhere worthwhile.

[robieman]

On the topic of Mechanized Infantry, 50% suppression resistance is not going to really do anything other than help them get out of suppression faster when not being shot at. We had to set the value to around 90% just for the squad to be able to resist a single burst of MG42 fire. Dropping from 25% received damage and 25% received accuracy to a simple 30% received damage reduction along with switching from soldier armor to infantry armor is a sizable nerf to their survivability.

Overall, your proposal would be a nerf to its unique capacity and makes them more of a generic squad. At 330 MP, 120 MU, you will get a squad that is almost as expensive as a SMG Ranger squad while having less firepower, lower health, and lower utility. If you want to set their price to 330 MP, then the squad needs to retain its soldier armor and go back to the original suppression immunity status when near tanks for it to even be anywhere worthwhile.

Im not aware of hard stats, if your saying they already have 90% resistance to suppression, I figured it was like 20%, then this is not the changes they need. Id suggest some like 98% resistance then. As for survivability, I was not aware they had a received accuracy modifier, I would keep them. Overall give them an extra man with Thompson, increase the resistance, and increase damage resistance.

[Snarks]

Im not aware of hard stats, if your saying they already have 90% resistance to suppression, I figured it was like 20%, then this is not the changes they need. Id suggest some like 98% resistance then. As for survivability, I was not aware they had a received accuracy modifier, I would keep them. Overall give them an extra man with Thompson, increase the resistance, and increase damage resistance.

I do not recall the hard stats exactly. It might already be between 97-98% suppression resistance. The MG42 has huge suppression capabilities.

As best I can remember, the unit has the following stats:

4 men squad
55 health per man
soldier armor
2x Thompsons, 1x Carbine, 1x Minesweeper
2 uses Pineapple Grenades
Vehicle Aura Buff:
30 unit range
98% suppression resistance
25% received damage reduction
25% received accuracy reduction

My suggestion would be one of three options:
A)
Set Grenades to an optional upgrade
Increase health per man by 5 to 60 HP per man
Lower MU price to 75
Increase MP to 300

B)
Replace Carbine with Thompson
Increase health per man by 5/10 to 60/65 HP per man
Increase MP to 300, MU to 125

C)
Add +1 man with Thompson
Detach grenades and make purchasable
Increase MP to 300

Personally, option A) is what I would think works best. While I am of the opinion the unit needs some buffs and/or some reverts from its previous nerfs, the unit needs to keep a cost low enough for the player to field. It is important to note that these units have to be fielded in conjunction with vehicle units, so keeping its pop low is important.

[UnLimiTeD]

The Mech Infantry aura grants 0.8 received damage, 0.75 recieved accuracy, and 0.2 received suppression.

[robieman]

The Mech Infantry aura grants 0.8 received damage, 0.75 recieved accuracy, and 0.2 received suppression.

Well then I largely support option B of yours snarks, except instead of replacing, simply add a single man. Then buff this aura suppression resistance.

[Otto von Saxony]

2. Jumbo
Some weird implications, especially with Stugs going from basically being a hard counter to Jumbos to being useless against them. I would be careful about giving out Pershing armor, especially since heavy tanks are already marginalized in terms of usage.

3/4. Seems fine by me.

5. This unit has an identity crisis and needs a clearly defined role first. I dont even know where you start with the unit because it tries to be so many different things without being particularly good at any of them. Furthermore, there isnt any clear doctrinal relationship. RCA is already a doctrine about artillery and support options, so having it as a scouting/screening unit might be a good direction. Something like a unit that has increased line of sight when stationary and perhaps PIAT ambush/cloak plus Johnson LMGs with suppressive fire. This lets the unit assist RCA mortars and provide extra suppression to fend off enemy blobs when a Vickers MG is not enough."
under this thread

2. Heavy tank discussions are a different matter, when I have ideas regarding them I plan on making a discussion thread regarding them. Regarding the Jumbo though there is not much room to change it other than giving it a better armour type. There is a bit of room for more acceleration/deceleration/max speed/turning rate, but even with a tiny increase in those it will still be slower/more sluggish than a Sherman while offering the same firepower. The idea with its niche atm to me is that its the tankier aggressive Sherman which combined with mechanized infantry is the spear point for assaults. Pershing armour, baring 3 exception, makes the Jumbo better at that roll than Panther armour. One of the exceptions, the upgunned hotchkiss, virtually always pens all allied armour anyways so its not much of a weakness.

If we dont like Pershing armour, Id be willing to spit-ball a custom armour type, but that would be much more work that switch to an existing type. Basically, I dont think the Jumbo is balanceable until it gets faster/more armour. It cannot go down in price/increase speed* much more/ without totally eclipsing regular Shermans, and it cannot get a better AT gun without eclipsing upgunned Shermans. The only really freedom for tweaking left would be an armour increase. Also an armour increase would be thematic since the Sherman Jumbo had more armour than a panther (actually more than a Pershing if we are nit-picking)

5. If I understand you here, your suggesting to make Devils Brigade into a cross between lgf and falls? I.e. powerful suppressing lmg, and ambush cloak? That would be a viable alternative, though it very well might be too strong. Would have to look at stat proposals to decide. Though I think the general idea of changing it to integrate better with RCA is what we should aim to do. So in that vain a more defensive unit would be ideal, though with that change to consider it would certainly need its rifle changed to a custom one or just a different vanilla rifle, and likely an HP increase. Realistically, a custom rifle is probably needed if we do that, unless we clone an axis rifle, since Lee-Enfields are not much better at long/medium range.

ATM the unit is very bad at defending since it will get out dpsed by any axis infantry squad from 13-35 m with or without Johnson LMGs. Whic is the crux of its issue, it cannot attack since its squishy and has basically 0 dps while moving, and it cannot defend since for its cost its dps is pretty terrible. A 260 mp 80 muni squad loses to 190 mp squad at ranges >13m, and unless it can cloak to <6m it will certainly lose 2-3 models, which is still a terrible trade for a 190 mp squad.

My suggestion would be one of three options:
A)
Set Grenades to an optional upgrade
Increase health per man by 5 to 60 HP per man
Lower MU price to 75
Increase MP to 300

B)
Replace Carbine with Thompson
Increase health per man by 5/10 to 60/65 HP per man
Increase MP to 300, MU to 125

C)
Add +1 man with Thompson
Detach grenades and make purchasable
Increase MP to 300

Personally, option A) is what I would think works best. While I am of the opinion the unit needs some buffs and/or some reverts from its previous nerfs, the unit needs to keep a cost low enough for the player to field. It is important to note that these units have to be fielded in conjunction with vehicle units, so keeping its pop low is important.

Mechanized have 65 hp/man for 260 hp/squad.

I think a hybrid of option A and B there would be better. Option A makes them a bit tougher (assuming we bring them to 70 hp/man) and more affordable, but doesnt resolve the issue that they have anemic damage output.

So basically:
70 hp/man
3 thompsons, 1 minesweeper
280 manpower
100 muni
grenades as a buyable option

[Snarks]

The Jumbo itself is a unit that infringes on other units. If you make it tougher, then it infringes even more on Pershing territory. If you make it weaker/lighter, then it infringes more so on Sherman territory. If you want the unit to stand out, then consider giving it abilities that give it some utility that is not already on those other two units. I would say something like Tank Shock from the Churchill, but then it just starts infringing there (but at least that is a different doctrine).

The isolation to Mech Inf firepower in solution A is the ability for the player to field more. Instead of 2 squads, a player can bring 3. (2 x 100 MU versus 3 x 75 MU). This lets the player choose different levels of firepower for a push.