+  Operation Market Garden
|-+  General Category
| |-+  Public Beta Testing
| | |-+  Allied Discussion
| | | |-+  Proposal to Make the Jumbo Unique
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: Proposal to Make the Jumbo Unique  (Read 988 times)
Snarks
Design Team
epic lolcat
*****

Reputation: 2405
Offline Offline

Posts: 1974


Toaster Bot

View Profile
« on: June 03, 2019, 08:59:00 AM »

The Jumbo is an OMG exclusive unit that has been both loved and hated by players. The fundamental issues with the Jumbo has been it overlaps heavily with that of the Sherman and that of the Pershing. First off, the stat differences between the Sherman and Jumbo are as follows: panther armor, 25% less speed (top speed of 3.9). To understand why, we need to understand how "kiting" works. The tactic of kiting involves keeping a vehicle out of range from enemy AT (most frequently handheld AT) while remaining in weapon range in order to fire back at the infantry unit. As a secondary defense, this increased distance decreases incoming accuracy and penetration of AT weapons (the values differ depending on the AT unit). The ultimate goal of kiting is to minimize expected received damage while maintaining basic firepower. With the exception of very specific units with specific doctrinal and veterancy buffs, all vehicles in the game are less accurate on the move than when stationary. Therefore, the ideal kiting method is as follows: 1) Fire, 2) Reverse vehicle, 3) Stop Vehicle, 4) Fire again. This is the standard and arguably most efficient micro for the vast majority of vehicles in CoH.

When kiting with a Sherman, the procedure according to the time table goes as follows:
Fire main cannon (0 seconds)
Accelerate vehicle in reverse (3 seconds)
Stop vehicle (~1 second)

At an acceleration of 1.6, a Sherman will reach 4.8 speed after 3 seconds. Deceleration at 4 means the vehicle will stop roughly at a second. However, this is only a theoretical minimum to the procedure. Input lag from player response means we can expect at least 1 second to be spent in-between orders. At a reload rate of 6 seconds, a 75mm Sherman only leaves the player with a grace period of 1 second to execute this procedure. In addition, kiting requires the player to maintain line of sight with the enemy infantry. Therefore, it is crucial to not reverse too quickly as it would a disengagement. In other words, the tank is intended to remain close enough to continue firing, such that players are likely only accelerating their vehicle in reverse for 2-3 seconds, as opposed to 3-4 seconds.

By comparison, a Jumbo can also and is usually performing the same procedure. Having the same acceleration value, a Jumbo is able to accelerate to 3.9 speed in 2.43 seconds. It is important to note here that 3.9 speed is enough such that the AT infantry will not be able to catch up and fire their weapons effectively.

From here, we can conclude that acceleration, not speed, is the chief factor in kiting. Speed is important only so much as it has a high enough value for the tank to outrun or maintain roughly equal distance from the advancing enemy.

Because this is the same standard procedure undertaken by both vehicles, the Jumbo has heavy overlap with the Sherman. The big distinction is that the Jumbo is less capable of approaching a Pak Gun and circle strafing but has better kiting potential thanks to its improved ability to deflect shots. Recall the secondary benefit of kiting is decreased accuracy and penetration of incoming AT weapons.

With this established, the idea is to make the Jumbo work fundamentally different from a Sherman and a Pershing (both of which are primarily used to kite). I propose the following changes:

-Decrease speed from 3.9 to 3.
-Decrease acceleration from 1.6 to 1.2.
-Decrease deceleration from 4 to 2.
-Increase health from 636 to 700.
-Change armor tables from Panther to JagdPanther.
-Change gun from 75mm Sherman to 76mm Sherman (this one might be optional)

Let us evaluate the mobility changes first. By decreasing its speed, the Jumbo will no longer be able to outrun infantry. This stops the vehicle from being an effective hunter of infantry because its speed is not enough for it to chase infantry. Next, the acceleration and deceleration changes in conjunction with the speed change makes the process of kiting a lot less viable. Without sufficient acceleration and deceleration, the player has to either commit to keeping the unit stationary or advance expecting reduced firepower. For reference, these are the same speeds and acceleration/deceleration values as a King Tiger.

To compensate, we improve the armor and health on the Jumbo. This works in tandem with the mobility changes by changing the unit from being used as a kiting unit and being pushed into a fire support role, the same way a player uses a King Tiger. The distinction is that a fire support role unit works by moving into range of the enemy and effectively sitting to provide fire support. Users of King Tigers will know that they rarely ever try to kite with the King Tiger.

Lastly, the change to the 76mm gun decreases the effective DPS against infantry. The 76mm gun has 7 seconds of reload, which effectively reduces its ability to engage infantry as typically speaking, each shot is expected to kill one infantry unit (unless they happen to be stacking on top of each other). While the 76mm cannon makes it better against medium armor, the slow speed of the Jumbo will prevent it from being an effective tank hunter as any medium tank can simply drive away from it. In addition, with the exception of the Stug, medium armor are already mostly ineffective against a Jumbo. For instance, a Panzer 4 will usually bounce shots until the Jumbo eventually wins.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 10:38:20 AM by Snarks » Logged

PM me via forum or TeamSpeak3 for anything relating to balance and doctrines.

"I... wait I have to... I have to take the top off this beer bottle before it opens..." - Pengu
Mostly because I'm retarded.
UnLimiTeD
Former R&R | RGD coder
Development
*****

Reputation: 8672
Offline Offline

Posts: 7876

Last of his kind

View Profile
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2019, 10:34:16 AM »

Maybe of note:
Infantry speeds are animation sets. In vehicle terms, Infantry moves at speed 4.
Logged


Quote from: userstupidname
I have never done any retarded quotes?
Revenge is a dish best served from the Barrel of a StuH.
Otto von Saxony
Game Design
****

Reputation: 194
Offline Offline

Posts: 36

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2019, 11:00:06 AM »

Note: the Jumbos acceleration/deceleration currently are 1.2 and 3 respectively.
Logged
Tommy952
Rules & Regulations Member
Game Design
****

Reputation: 1510
Offline Offline

Posts: 1128

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2019, 03:57:38 PM »

Bold and interesting proposal. Sort of like a Tiger-lite. Jagd armour would be very potent - quick review of the target tables suggests Paks would have only a 14% chance of penetration without first strike bonus, and that is before range modifiers reduce it further. Would be quite frightening to see such a Jumbo come around the corner if that is all you had!

I like the idea a lot on the whole. It would need to be priced appropriately of course - probably around 14/15 pop and a weighty fuel price in the 400-500 territory. I would be inclined to have a small pool and low resupply not dissimilar to the Churchill Croc.

My only suggestion would be to keep it as a 75mm gun. Armour already has regular tank destroyers plus the E8, putting a 76mm gun on such a monstrous chassis would likely make the E8 redundant. I appreciate what you say about other tanks simply being able to move away, but in a front line/territory capture environment I feel it would be too tempting to use this unit as a jack of all trades to take on most threats single handedly.

To further distinguish it from the Sherman, I would probably also be inclined to give it a bit more of a health boost. The Pershing has 990 and even that feels like it has a short lifespan on field.
Logged
Pages: [1] Print 
 

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.19 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines Developed By Lee Sherwood Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!